You fantasy geeks are the most enteraining duo on the internet. Thanks for all your hard work and community engagement! I can't wait to field my Warriors of Chaos!! Looking forward to the army review (the Wood Elf army overview video is awesome).
Bromance over bases is such a great line. I found you guys just because I was desparate to find people who were as excited about the Old World as I was but SB is really transforming my approach to the hobby; I started 23 years ago getting tabled weekly at a room we rented at my secondary school and for years that has put me off the idea of competative play. But seeing you guys talk about it and thinking about it as both a community and skillbased experience.. It feels like I'm just starting the hobby for the first time? Sorry guys I think I keep making this same comment, I'll get along to the discord on payday and find something new to say down here ;)
It might be your case, as it is case in my local area outside of our own "incel" group; there are simply a lot of players who do not play their best because they like to win, but because they need to win for... whatever internalized reason. It's actually these guys that are what is off-putting to me and imho gives the word of competetive gaming a bad connotation. I've been to multiple 2-day AoS events and despite always going there to just have fun with no ambitions - basically 2-3 being my best result, generally it was 4-5 great games with cool people who actually played competetively or tried their best, but didn't really need to make the game miserable for you. Sure, bad apple here and there but 90% definitely positive - and definitely something I would not be able to replicate in a pick-up game in local community.
I love playing with painted armies and painting my armies but I needed to hear Val say its ok (as a starting point) to play with what we have even if its just primed. A lot of us are starting from scratch and we could be waiting quite a while to get games in with higher barriers to entry. That being said, get painting those minis! Thanks Square Based!
I remember when I was a kid, we had the rule books and a few bases so we would cut out pieces of paper write the unit down on it and play as we slowly built our armies, however you can play is all good
Firstly, thank you guys for bringing this to the front. It has a huge impact on the game. From lived experience with WHFB across multiple editions, us Aussies generally played a mix of 1500, 1999, 2250, and 2400 point games. And yes, each point bracket changed the power dynamic of the army tiers around. But it also kept the game fresh. I personally preferred 1999/2250 for limiting ‘power tools’ but getting more of the toys. Fingers crossed that bracket remains
I remember, my introduction to Warhammer was back when I was 13/14, and a friend came over and talked about it. Then we pulled all the checkers and chess pieces out, and plundered every dice from every other board game in the house, and I played my first game there on the carpet. I understand tournaments having standards, but I personally will never have an issue if the person across from me puts down Dr. Pepper the Bone Giant.
For me I find it easier to paint 500 points and then start trying to paint 250 points as I go along, so I don't get burned out from to much painting. Plus it let me get to the table quicker to learn the rules and have fun with my army. Awesome video and can't wait for the next one.
I'm 100% with Val - I base (bass?) paint my minis, then wash them, and that's where it ends. I really need to try and step my game up with the highlighting.... Thanks for the content, guys!
Loving the content guys. I was really on the fence about Old World after hearing that Chaos Dwarfs weren't getting future 'support'. But after listening to the podcast I'm more excited than ever, keep the videos coming!
@@loganheath2895 Are you saying it *wasn't* a 5 second game that ended when you killed 3000 pts before deployment started? :O I think it was one of the first 40k games I watched on a livestream. Was pretty hilarious, honestly!
Without a rulebook at the moment, I’d be willing to hear the hosts talk about ANY aspect of the game, and I am stoked to hear Rob discuss more army lists after hearing his great Wood Elf review.
On base sizing - I'm a (really) old player. My models are on slotta bases, re-basing is next to impossible without huge expense! Spacer trays are the only solution for me to be able to play this, so your view on being agnostic on that at the start is a really brilliant point! Without that, my personal barrier to entry is way too high.
I always encourage starting a meta with a wider apature, so you have a better idea of what the "box" you have to put around it should be. Sure you could put a box around it to begin with, but then when you think "maybe we need to change the shape of this box" you aren't quite as sure what that revised shape will be. Alot more iteration to get it right IMO.
All I can say is that I started a Slaves to Darkness army in AoS inspired by Vermintide well before TOW was announced, and I would be extremely grateful if the community normalised allowing 32mm round bases for models that are "supposed" to be based on 30mm squares (within reason, of course - a 20-wide rank of models is gonna net you multiple extra whole cm if based on 32mm bases instead of 30mm).
I love how the community content creators started of sprinting with the TOW from the get-go en masse. It really feels like TOWs got overwhelming momentum going already and I can only hope it goes far and long!
Thanks for kicking off a constructive chat around event organising and pick up & play. As a TO a very welcome topic. I think when designing lists for Pick up games or less competitive style events a good framework is to ask yourself “will my opponent enjoy and I enjoy playing my army?” Multiple takes of the same “good” thing can be themey but like what mentioned about allies and mercenaries, when playing a complete stranger it can be a real turn off.
consider me subscribed! Next gen Warhammer fantasy needs next gen content creators. Like you said, I was the guy listening to Malorian and Lordtremendous and SkavenAZ. I'll follow you closely, mate!
Having played WH since second I can say you guys make learning about the game and future is fun. I am wanting to run an event in my hometown now. Bring out my gobbos and wood elves
I agree with you guys. At this point in time, re-basing is last priority. My group and I are just looking to get our rules, read through them, then trip our way through the first few games. Lol But it’s super important for everyone to just get out there and enjoy themselves.
You guys are the best! I love to listen to your programs while painting. Informative, fun, productive, and time well spent! Even my stockpile of primed dwarfs stop grumbling at me for a while... 🍺
Yeah a narrative is the difference between it being a sport and something with a bit of meat on the bone. Give me some vague but compelling reason my troops are flinging themselves into certain death and im so in. By far the best coverage and insights guys, great work.
Love the show! My hope is that we don't end up with a single style of event. Different events can (and should, I think) play at different points levels, with different win conditions (e.g. WLD vs 20/0) - that will keep things changing and make it less likely that a 'stale' meta develops. Want 4 games in 1 day? 1250-1500 points. Want a grander, bigger-feeling event? 2500 points. Some events with allies, others without. Some at 2000, some at 1999. Keeps things fresh and changes the meta without needing more content or rules/points changes handed down from on high. MESBG does this super well.
Loosing a game on list building because you cannot afford or aquire the units sucks. Same with multiples of strong units. My view would be sub 2000. Got someone organising an event for me so will be interesting to add some of your discussion points into the mix. Thanks!
i'm loving seeing you guys put out content constantly. Yet, the game does need an agreed upon structure. If anything to help people have a build towards point goal.
You guys rock. Just so chill and hype at the same time. 🎉😂 Might have to make my down from Ottawa to a Square Based event sometime Val. P.s. I'm saving the faction focus stuff for when I have the books. So I can read first.
You're doing a great job guys, thanks a lot for keeping the hype alive! How do you guys think about some 'self-regulating' mechanism for army lists, like every second special unit of the same type costs 15% more than the regular price, and every third 25% or whatever. And perhaps an even more agressive points curve for rare units. The underlying question i guess is: are special and rare units relatively stronger than core units, with the relativity referring to their price cost. In other words: are special and rare units actually underpriced, and is that the reason why there's a cap on them? And if they are underpriced, does that automatically mean they are unbalanced, or do they only become so when you take multiple of the same?
I'm really loving your show, watching every episode in its entirety. If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion/request. It would be really useful to me if you could briefly talk about mini releases, be that GW or Patreon or Kickstarter or whatever.
@@valheffelfinger6521 just suggestions of what minis are out there this month for a DIY army. I watch the Bonehead Podcast and they review Kickstarters, and Patreon blood bowl teams and I find it to be a really useful segment.
Our group JUST discussed this exact topic. Running a GT in May and I pointed out some of the crazy lists you can do with how GW released army comp. It's insane.
Just got my ticket for #squarebassedGT on the 6th of April and I’m super excited, gonna be my fist ever tournament and I now have a deadline for motivation to get my army finished and play some practice games, woohoo!!!!🎉
On AoS 32mm bases. Is a movement tray where the circles are slightly offset possible? The unit might be a little long, but the frontage would be right.
Ah yeah that time I turned up to a tourney in Preston and smashed Robs freshly printed beast of chaos spam with 160 zombies on the release weekend of the SBGL book ;) o7 love your work lads
I feel called out by the movement tray youtube comment remark! :) But I have to say I was extremely surprised that is customary to measure from inside of the tray - that ofc makes my whole 32 vs 30 and tray argument invalid. That being said, I (and possibly others who never played WHFB) would maybe appreciate if there could be a "New to ToW" video, focused not so much on rules etc but more on etiquette and best practices? Similar to the spirit of the original Honest Wargamer guidebook.
Managed to get Bret army, 2000 points for 120 eur, and that's without setting up my own 3D printer. It's knight heavy army with Duke on Pegasus, lady and Green Knight. Now I'm diving head first into old world.
Have been absolutely loving the content! Signed up to the Patreon to get that sweet Special Rules ASMR drilled into my head. Really great stuff so far, you all are doing great. Make sure to take care of yourselves with this frantic schedule! Hard disagree with you both on the allies and mercenaries, and I know you were totally pressed for time. I'd invite you to look at the full rules limitations for Allies and Mercenaries which are quite substantial already in the big blue book. Having played all the way back to 6th edition Warhammer where Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown added really interesting units (that often were intentionally a bit over-costed) they added some tactical variety, without being game breaking. Looking at the allies rules, it would be difficult (especially at 1,999-2,000 points) to really maximize on an allied armies "uber units." In many cases you get "more of the same." I have a hunch based on this setting and what we've seen so far that allies/mercenaries will play a big part of future Arcane Journals, and to remove that from events may be a big missed opportunity, without really much gain for player experience. I'd say give it another read! I'm hoping to run a one-day event (still in the planning) for Old World, and it hadn't even crossed my mind to ban allies/mercenaries. Seems like such a great opportunity for narrative building and hobby within an event, using the rules out of the big blue book!
The fact that they have to be a mini 500 point army (assuming 2000 points) that meets the restrictions of the allied grand army is a sort of ok restriction. However! What it does is really take away the point of having factions in the first place. Namely that each faction has their unique strengths and weaknesses. Always being able to shore up something you don't have via Allies, means that you get a very same-samey meta. HOWEVER I am sure that lots of events won't take this hard line and will play straight out of the book. And if that's the case well... there's lots of other things that will be a problem first. Like not having appropriate limits on unit selections.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Totally can respect that viewpoint! There could be a risk of "same-samey" Meta. I'm from the Midwest Warhammer hobby/tournament community and that my influence my perspective as our tournament packs tended to be pretty hands off. Our events were pretty resistant to composition rules and the like in Warhammer Fantasy. It often meant we would see some pretty wild army builds to try and make sense of what happened. I'm optimistic we will see a bunch of different event cultures develop (which I think we are all better for). I do have a little worry for the Dwarves "Ride of the Valkyries"... ruclips.net/video/hn37QfXw1-E/видео.html Love the content and engagement!
On the 1999 vs 2000 points. The differences between armies is more acutely felt at the boundaries in brackets when you have access to high power rare and lord characters. Take 8th Ed Warriors of Chaos as an example; you would have a massive power advantage @ 2001 points vs 1999 points in the new OW comp system
1:18:30 When you talked about having a bad experience at a club/pickup game it triggered me, remembering when I tried to get into 8th edition for the first time. I had started building Skaven and got around 2,000 points and arranged a game at my local club. I explained it was my first game and that I wanted a chill learning experience. Well, this guy said he would play me and he was experienced. I rocked up to the club with my new army - super excited for my first game. He turned up with his Beasts of Chaos tourney list - and preceded to tell me he needed a bit of tourney practice for an upcoming event. Well - after he crushed me completely by turn 2, I sure did have a learning experience that day but it wasn’t the lesson I wanted but a lesson in how some people are douchebags. Even to this day I am wary of playing strangers in pickup games - it was an awful experience. Hopeful I will have better times when I get my new Tomb Kings army up and running. Fingers crossed.
See... That's a bummer. And just so you know - he probably also sucked at Warhammer. Beating up on a new player isn't practice, it's being a dipshit. I'd bet if you'd gone to whatever event he was practicing for you could have gotten some catharsis by watching him lose badly ... And also actually learned something from his opponents.
Shocking form the experience player .... Obviously a complete arse - he could have practiced and taught you how to play in an enjoyable way by running through the rules and how he hoped his army was going to work and also give you some pointers on how to play your army. I used to buy all the army books read them so I could understand how other armies would play to the best I could but if I played someone less experience than myself I would be able to help with their strategy as much as I could hone mine - I am glad it did not put you off the game completely good luck with your Tomb Kings in the new version the Old World .
The USMR battle magic drama chat took me back to my original intro game at gnesworkshop, “Let’s SEE which spell you’ve cast… … ITS CONFLAGORATION OF DOOOOOM!!” (With the ‘R’ rolled hard and the doom how you think it is)
I really want you guys to know that I truly feel you have the community on your back and that honestly no matter what tomfoolery gw management gets up to we'll make it through while you're at the head
from a 'nartative' player who's checking out the old world hype because I'm geed to proxy my under used historicals against my buddies WFB stuff, the general point that we should just run our own events and take up space rather than griping is well taken more of us might hear it if you didn't feel the need to get agro about it cobber.
Love the show. You guys are putting out great content and it’s great to see two intelligent wargamers thinking through a number of important topics about the emerging game. It’s interesting that you guys think allies and mercenaries should be nixed for tournaments. We might get there as a community but I’d like to see how the game plays without composition restrictions first. They are only 25% and you have to take a character. I think it might be fun to take a unit of demography in a wood elf army or a beastman Minotaur block in a khorne army. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it before we start seeing some games on the table. It would be fun if some tournaments allowed them (perhaps banning certain units as allies if necessary?) back in 7th and 8th edition we literally used to score composition and dock tournament points from players based on combos. I don’t think the old world will have those kind of balance issues. But we will see! Anyhow, please keep the shows coming. I need to company while I grind through building my oldhammer wood elves army!
I guess we've both seen enough "Taudar" for one lifetime. Allies defeat the point of having factions that have their own strengths and weaknesses. It could be fun, absolutely no doubt ... But specifically from the perspectives of events allies have basically never resulted in a more diverse meta. Kinda the opposite. That being said doubles and pickup games and fun narrative scenarios go nuts! And heck if your local community is all for it then we're not gonna say you can't. But as a general point - we're not down. - Val.
@@SquareBasedOldWorldThat's all fair. I don't have experience with 40k tournaments and their historical allies meta so my experience comes more from 8th ed doubles tournaments where armies often seemed less powerful when combined--because the special rules didn't flow across the full army and the pairs had to split magic dice. I'm eager to get the books in hand next weekend and start plastering army lists on my wall with red string like that dude from A Beautiful Mind. I'll have a better sense of the potential for allies in the Old World then. But point taken on allies breaking the theme/strengths/weaknesses of the army archetypes. Hopefully we will get a diversity of event packs over the coming year that will test this out/decide it. Or, even better, maybe we will get occasional events that allow allies to add some spice to the tournament calendar.
As far as base sizes... if both people are on trays, which everyone is typically... just measure to and from tray edges. Treating the edge of the tray as 1 big base, unless you have taken casualties then its just to the edge of where the unit is as on that tray...
The dimensions of a rimmed tray of 5 30mm square-based models is *very* close to the dimensions of certain trays for 5 32mm round-based models, if the round-based tray is designed so the bases are right up at the edge.
Chess has 8 pawns, but only 2 bishops and only 1 queen. Meaning if the unit is going to be spammable it shouldn’t be queen-level strength. If buggies had been pawns and not alpha striking entire teams off the board it would have been fine.
After all this talk of Chaos Lords, Wood Elf arrow lines, ambushing units…looks like my poor Bretonnian Men-at-Arms are going to get smashed 😂 Can’t wait for your Bretonnia review. Keep it up gents!
I’d be fine with allies if they made it so you couldn’t take allied rare units (it doesn’t make sense for the Empire to be lending out steam tanks), and an allied core unit took up a special slot, and an allied special unit took up a rare slot, similar to dogs of war taking up rare unit slots in 6th.
Great chat. I really like some of Rob’s commentary on narrative gamers, but I’d assume it will be (potentially deliberately) misunderstood. As someone who was involved in running ‘narrative’ Heresy events, the narrative was very much in the setting, which we pushed big time in the event, even as far as not having placings for the winning games. But essentially the game was still played to a points level, the level of narrative would vary wildly depending on the match up (list and player), and there’s no reason that a more competitive event could not produce the same level of fun game with a narratives formed by players on each table. But only if they wanted to, and sometimes the narrative is just in one players head, and there’s no reason that cannot work as well. The problem is probably down to the way the word narrative is used, and the different expectations that sets. I’ve no doubt I’ve used the word to describe myself as a player, but the truth is while I enjoy big narrative games with friends, most of the time that narrative is my own, and what I really am is a more casual gamer who enjoys ‘narrative’ where I can get it. As a filthy casual I love to listen to meta chat, and think tournaments do a lot to help drive community initiatives, create potential comp where it’s needed, which then flows down to club pick up games. I would say try all the stuff at clubs though, most pick up games aren’t speed dating, they’re arranged via Facebook and WhatsApp groups, and all the game set up questions can be asked there. I love the 1999 Vs 2000 chat as well. But I really wouldn’t rush to decide on that before 2k has been tested a bit. I get what you were both saying about how experience tells us things will need to be managed, and there’s a good chance 1999 might be the fix for that, but I’d at least try the game as the studio has balanced it for a short while, some armies really might need that extra war machine or lord. With that in mind though I would say that sticking to 2k (or 1999) could be important, I’m already seeing chatter about 2400 and 2500 again, and that’s where the bigger units sneak back in, the space to double or triple up on powerful stuff. I like that I can’t take it all at 2k, so hope that’s the level we stick to. Can’t wait to see where we are in a year.
I think everyone is going to want a level 4 just for dispelling all those level 1's. Also I think the best fix for wizard spam is to restrict each spell to only being cast once per turn no matter how many people know it.
As far as the discussion at 1:20:00 I first of all agree that the biggest issue with finding games is finding opponents who are on the same page as you as far as what you want from the game. Players agreeing on what type of game they want to play probably solves 95% of issues like that. On the same note, I'm always amazed at how so many self-proclaimed "narrative" players get so worked up over losing. Played a 2v1 game last week of 40k. Me and the "narrative" player against another player. The "narrative" player spent more time than the other two of us combined complaining about perceived balance issues. Curious how that works.
Comment of the stream. "I lost so hard I thought I had a brain tumour or something" absolutely creased 😂 we've all been there. I took my 10 chaos knights and chaos lord into aos thinking they'd chew threw anything. Yeah charged some trolls, horses got dead
Finding this podcast as a stats-centre and covid-times honest-stream enjoyer from before 40k lost me is like finding out that my two favourite bands are not just back together, but touring on the same bill 😂. #bassedforlyfe
And well deserved feels they are too sir! You are both absolute (worlds of) Legends! My hype for the game is now eclipsing the sun and I have no idea where I'm even going to play it haha. Much love to you both, and to the mighty Falcon wherever him and his little Lazer-eye are ❤
For the cannons example, is the rule that: A) you get 0-3 cannons from 0-999, and 0-6 from 1000-1999, then a shocking 0-9 at 2000 points, or is it B) that you get 0 cannons at 0-999, then 0-3 from 1000-1999, and 0-6 at 2000?
It's 0-3 per 1000. So you'd get up to 3 at 1000 and up to 6 at 2000. hence 1999 would mean you only get 0-3. also it's not just cannons, but grudgethrowers and bolt throwers are part of the 0-3 limit list. So you could take one of each per 1000 or 3 of 1, etc...
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Good - that's what I thought it was, but I had a sudden doubt while listening. Anyway, great show as always, keep up the excellent work :)
Do you guys think there's any chance we should go for a lower point total as the standard, say 1500 or 1750? Just curious. Obviously the model count in 8th was a huge objection and I'm wondering if that is being lost a bit at the moment. I have the same attitude as you guys about wanting to have a large inviting environment where you can pull in as many people as possible.
Re; the crazy skew lists, if what Rob said about 9th age tournament players being part of the playtesting is true, I think we should be in good hands. Been 9th aging for a few years and the playtesters always go super skewy, trying absolute chaotic lists to see how much it breaks the game. im optimistic!
The developers of the game have already put in # per x pts restriction in the first place. This makes for a very clear indication of the potency of the unit. However, this also means they have tuned this to these pts values for a specific reason. Often these units have a very important role and may need a 2nd instance to handle a high pts value. I think trying to game this with the 1999vs2000 game tier would server detrimental for the intended restrictions already in place.
Love Val attitude to Tournament play in regards to early tournament especially due to base sizes. Trying to rebase my Army now but it will take time as it is a vampire counts army, therefore need to be careful as i take them off older bases. Tournaments are great to play in as you are able to discuss the game and play against people who are liked minded. It is awY to make friends and also to have a real laugh. Give players 6-12 months then standards can be improved to the level that all players will want to adhere to. I really hope a tournament is held down at the end of England (south west) - Kernow, coz I will definitely be there.💀💀✨🌟💥
I showed up to a 40k tourney this past weekend with one of the worst armies in the game. I was hoping to go 1-4, was 0-3 going into day 2 but still happy to be getting games in. Ended 2-3 with final game being *almost* a tie and def my favorite game of the weekend. What's your stance on mercs specificially for Armies of Infamy?
Personally I'm not so against them as they're much much more limted than allies at present. Plus they're mitigated by some silly random rules that can make them less dependable ... of course it remains to be seen what they do with that allotment in the future. - Val
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
If I could inject the Old World content directly into my veins I would, I'm so absolutely stoked to get games in despite all the launch problems.
You fantasy geeks are the most enteraining duo on the internet. Thanks for all your hard work and community engagement! I can't wait to field my Warriors of Chaos!! Looking forward to the army review (the Wood Elf army overview video is awesome).
You might be very happy very soon!
Bromance over bases is such a great line. I found you guys just because I was desparate to find people who were as excited about the Old World as I was but SB is really transforming my approach to the hobby; I started 23 years ago getting tabled weekly at a room we rented at my secondary school and for years that has put me off the idea of competative play. But seeing you guys talk about it and thinking about it as both a community and skillbased experience.. It feels like I'm just starting the hobby for the first time? Sorry guys I think I keep making this same comment, I'll get along to the discord on payday and find something new to say down here ;)
Naw. That's some of the coolest shit you could say to us. It doesn't get old at all!
It might be your case, as it is case in my local area outside of our own "incel" group; there are simply a lot of players who do not play their best because they like to win, but because they need to win for... whatever internalized reason.
It's actually these guys that are what is off-putting to me and imho gives the word of competetive gaming a bad connotation. I've been to multiple 2-day AoS events and despite always going there to just have fun with no ambitions - basically 2-3 being my best result, generally it was 4-5 great games with cool people who actually played competetively or tried their best, but didn't really need to make the game miserable for you. Sure, bad apple here and there but 90% definitely positive - and definitely something I would not be able to replicate in a pick-up game in local community.
I absolutely loved the Wood Elf video. Excellent.
More on the way
I love playing with painted armies and painting my armies but I needed to hear Val say its ok (as a starting point) to play with what we have even if its just primed. A lot of us are starting from scratch and we could be waiting quite a while to get games in with higher barriers to entry. That being said, get painting those minis! Thanks Square Based!
I remember when I was a kid, we had the rule books and a few bases so we would cut out pieces of paper write the unit down on it and play as we slowly built our armies, however you can play is all good
Firstly, thank you guys for bringing this to the front. It has a huge impact on the game.
From lived experience with WHFB across multiple editions, us Aussies generally played a mix of 1500, 1999, 2250, and 2400 point games. And yes, each point bracket changed the power dynamic of the army tiers around. But it also kept the game fresh.
I personally preferred 1999/2250 for limiting ‘power tools’ but getting more of the toys.
Fingers crossed that bracket remains
I remember, my introduction to Warhammer was back when I was 13/14, and a friend came over and talked about it. Then we pulled all the checkers and chess pieces out, and plundered every dice from every other board game in the house, and I played my first game there on the carpet. I understand tournaments having standards, but I personally will never have an issue if the person across from me puts down Dr. Pepper the Bone Giant.
For me I find it easier to paint 500 points and then start trying to paint 250 points as I go along, so I don't get burned out from to much painting.
Plus it let me get to the table quicker to learn the rules and have fun with my army.
Awesome video and can't wait for the next one.
I'm 100% with Val - I base (bass?) paint my minis, then wash them, and that's where it ends. I really need to try and step my game up with the highlighting.... Thanks for the content, guys!
Loving the content guys. I was really on the fence about Old World after hearing that Chaos Dwarfs weren't getting future 'support'. But after listening to the podcast I'm more excited than ever, keep the videos coming!
On base sizes: that's why we have movement trays. Just put 16 dwarfs on a 100x100 tray and call it done
Hey Val! Found and started painted my battle for skull pass box, love the content! cheers from sweden!
Rob helped us get through the pandemic and now I'm so happy these vids are popping off. Feels like a moment!
It's so awesome!!!
My local TO's put QR codes in the event pack for the missions, deployment, and terrain layouts. Saves printing, and super easy to pull up
Love that
Surprised my win against Sean got mentioned on a podcast for Old World, but it fits.
Super excited for Fantasy to come back. Thanks for the content!
Omg Logan!! Let's gooo. Hope you are well
Possibly *the* most influential game in modern 40k? It feels like it played a big role in GW's more active approach to game balance :)
@@SquareBasedOldWorlddoing great! Looking forward to playing High Elves.
@@ElOvnen😂😂 I like how it gets retold with some slight inaccuracies from time to time. What a fun army. I’ll never forget that experience.
@@loganheath2895 Are you saying it *wasn't* a 5 second game that ended when you killed 3000 pts before deployment started? :O
I think it was one of the first 40k games I watched on a livestream. Was pretty hilarious, honestly!
Without a rulebook at the moment, I’d be willing to hear the hosts talk about ANY aspect of the game, and I am stoked to hear Rob discuss more army lists after hearing his great Wood Elf review.
Disappointed to hear your thoughts on narrative play, its one of my favorite aspects of the heresy community.
I'm not sure what's disappointing you but I'm happy it's there. I've taken part in it but I think it requires more work time and effort than a pug
As a Wood Elf player, still gotta pack that forest scenery with my army to plop down on the table! :-D
On base sizing - I'm a (really) old player. My models are on slotta bases, re-basing is next to impossible without huge expense! Spacer trays are the only solution for me to be able to play this, so your view on being agnostic on that at the start is a really brilliant point! Without that, my personal barrier to entry is way too high.
I always encourage starting a meta with a wider apature, so you have a better idea of what the "box" you have to put around it should be. Sure you could put a box around it to begin with, but then when you think "maybe we need to change the shape of this box" you aren't quite as sure what that revised shape will be. Alot more iteration to get it right IMO.
Boys! I'm watching ALL of your videos now! Love the banter. Great work and thank you for your time and effort!
All I can say is that I started a Slaves to Darkness army in AoS inspired by Vermintide well before TOW was announced, and I would be extremely grateful if the community normalised allowing 32mm round bases for models that are "supposed" to be based on 30mm squares (within reason, of course - a 20-wide rank of models is gonna net you multiple extra whole cm if based on 32mm bases instead of 30mm).
I love how the community content creators started of sprinting with the TOW from the get-go en masse. It really feels like TOWs got overwhelming momentum going already and I can only hope it goes far and long!
It's a marathon run at a sprint
Thanks for kicking off a constructive chat around event organising and pick up & play. As a TO a very welcome topic.
I think when designing lists for Pick up games or less competitive style events a good framework is to ask yourself “will my opponent enjoy and I enjoy playing my army?”
Multiple takes of the same “good” thing can be themey but like what mentioned about allies and mercenaries, when playing a complete stranger it can be a real turn off.
One of the best places to get Old World info. Spread the good word. Keep up the great work guys
Love you guys and love this show! Thanks for making the wait for the boxes of plastic shorter by entertaining us
Y’all are putting out an impressive amount of content right now and I am definitely on the hype train
consider me subscribed! Next gen Warhammer fantasy needs next gen content creators. Like you said, I was the guy listening to Malorian and Lordtremendous and SkavenAZ. I'll follow you closely, mate!
Having played WH since second I can say you guys make learning about the game and future is fun. I am wanting to run an event in my hometown now. Bring out my gobbos and wood elves
OB and MrMalorian - loved them, You legend! 💪
Keep the mammoth content coming boys. Commutes to work have never been so #squarebased loved the wood elf graphics Rob
I agree with you guys. At this point in time, re-basing is last priority. My group and I are just looking to get our rules, read through them, then trip our way through the first few games. Lol But it’s super important for everyone to just get out there and enjoy themselves.
You guys are the best! I love to listen to your programs while painting. Informative, fun, productive, and time well spent! Even my stockpile of primed dwarfs stop grumbling at me for a while... 🍺
I was avoiding the Old World. But thanks to you dudes I've kept my ear to the ground and accidently fallen into an entire Empire force :D
Yeah a narrative is the difference between it being a sport and something with a bit of meat on the bone. Give me some vague but compelling reason my troops are flinging themselves into certain death and im so in. By far the best coverage and insights guys, great work.
You’re really spoiling us with these daily releases ❤ love u guys
Love the show! My hope is that we don't end up with a single style of event. Different events can (and should, I think) play at different points levels, with different win conditions (e.g. WLD vs 20/0) - that will keep things changing and make it less likely that a 'stale' meta develops.
Want 4 games in 1 day? 1250-1500 points. Want a grander, bigger-feeling event? 2500 points. Some events with allies, others without. Some at 2000, some at 1999. Keeps things fresh and changes the meta without needing more content or rules/points changes handed down from on high. MESBG does this super well.
Loosing a game on list building because you cannot afford or aquire the units sucks. Same with multiples of strong units. My view would be sub 2000. Got someone organising an event for me so will be interesting to add some of your discussion points into the mix. Thanks!
i'm loving seeing you guys put out content constantly. Yet, the game does need an agreed upon structure. If anything to help people have a build towards point goal.
If you bore me to death with old world talks, I’ll die a happy man. Keep up the good work!
You guys rock.
Just so chill and hype at the same time. 🎉😂
Might have to make my down from Ottawa to a Square Based event sometime Val.
P.s. I'm saving the faction focus stuff for when I have the books. So I can read first.
Solid episode. Keep it up!
I'm liking the 1999pts option to start. It feels a little like training wheels.
Best part of old world coming back is having you two along for the ride 😊 Keep up the great work 👍
You're doing a great job guys, thanks a lot for keeping the hype alive! How do you guys think about some 'self-regulating' mechanism for army lists, like every second special unit of the same type costs 15% more than the regular price, and every third 25% or whatever. And perhaps an even more agressive points curve for rare units. The underlying question i guess is: are special and rare units relatively stronger than core units, with the relativity referring to their price cost. In other words: are special and rare units actually underpriced, and is that the reason why there's a cap on them? And if they are underpriced, does that automatically mean they are unbalanced, or do they only become so when you take multiple of the same?
I love the effort you guys put into your shows and videos. Seriously keep it up! Long live Square Based!
Great show as always, loving the content your putting out.
I'm really loving your show, watching every episode in its entirety.
If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion/request. It would be really useful to me if you could briefly talk about mini releases, be that GW or Patreon or Kickstarter or whatever.
Like how to collect?
@@valheffelfinger6521 just suggestions of what minis are out there this month for a DIY army. I watch the Bonehead Podcast and they review Kickstarters, and Patreon blood bowl teams and I find it to be a really useful segment.
Our group JUST discussed this exact topic. Running a GT in May and I pointed out some of the crazy lists you can do with how GW released army comp. It's insane.
Yuuuup. I think there's a really simple and largely agreeable solution out there. - Val.
Love these vids boys!
Just got my ticket for #squarebassedGT on the 6th of April and I’m super excited, gonna be my fist ever tournament and I now have a deadline for motivation to get my army finished and play some practice games, woohoo!!!!🎉
I’m feeling spoiled with so much Square Based coming out!
On AoS 32mm bases. Is a movement tray where the circles are slightly offset possible? The unit might be a little long, but the frontage would be right.
🎉 Party likes it’s 1999 (points in my fantasy wargame) 🎉
GW HQ is partying like it's 1999 with 2020s money. They are partying *hard*
You can. Most of us want a game that isn’t cheekily restricted by lowering the maximum a single point.
Im not sure I see this 1999 popping up everywhere.
I will leap to watch as many as you can put out, thanks guys
Ah yeah that time I turned up to a tourney in Preston and smashed Robs freshly printed beast of chaos spam with 160 zombies on the release weekend of the SBGL book ;) o7 love your work lads
Not Rob from the show
@@SquareBasedOldWorld haha nah Robs mate Rob, I think they were Rob number 1s beasts though!
I feel called out by the movement tray youtube comment remark! :) But I have to say I was extremely surprised that is customary to measure from inside of the tray - that ofc makes my whole 32 vs 30 and tray argument invalid. That being said, I (and possibly others who never played WHFB) would maybe appreciate if there could be a "New to ToW" video, focused not so much on rules etc but more on etiquette and best practices? Similar to the spirit of the original Honest Wargamer guidebook.
This one is 💯 P on my list - Val
Turning 35 tomorrow, also seeking a late ADHD diagnosis. Val setting the standard for me to follow!
Honestly it was like those videos where people put on glasses and see colour for the first time... Except not an influencer scam.
Also get checked for sleep apnea
Managed to get Bret army, 2000 points for 120 eur, and that's without setting up my own 3D printer. It's knight heavy army with Duke on Pegasus, lady and Green Knight. Now I'm diving head first into old world.
Come on in! The water is warm!
Have been absolutely loving the content! Signed up to the Patreon to get that sweet Special Rules ASMR drilled into my head. Really great stuff so far, you all are doing great. Make sure to take care of yourselves with this frantic schedule!
Hard disagree with you both on the allies and mercenaries, and I know you were totally pressed for time. I'd invite you to look at the full rules limitations for Allies and Mercenaries which are quite substantial already in the big blue book. Having played all the way back to 6th edition Warhammer where Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown added really interesting units (that often were intentionally a bit over-costed) they added some tactical variety, without being game breaking. Looking at the allies rules, it would be difficult (especially at 1,999-2,000 points) to really maximize on an allied armies "uber units." In many cases you get "more of the same." I have a hunch based on this setting and what we've seen so far that allies/mercenaries will play a big part of future Arcane Journals, and to remove that from events may be a big missed opportunity, without really much gain for player experience.
I'd say give it another read! I'm hoping to run a one-day event (still in the planning) for Old World, and it hadn't even crossed my mind to ban allies/mercenaries. Seems like such a great opportunity for narrative building and hobby within an event, using the rules out of the big blue book!
The fact that they have to be a mini 500 point army (assuming 2000 points) that meets the restrictions of the allied grand army is a sort of ok restriction. However! What it does is really take away the point of having factions in the first place. Namely that each faction has their unique strengths and weaknesses. Always being able to shore up something you don't have via Allies, means that you get a very same-samey meta.
HOWEVER I am sure that lots of events won't take this hard line and will play straight out of the book. And if that's the case well... there's lots of other things that will be a problem first. Like not having appropriate limits on unit selections.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Totally can respect that viewpoint! There could be a risk of "same-samey" Meta. I'm from the Midwest Warhammer hobby/tournament community and that my influence my perspective as our tournament packs tended to be pretty hands off. Our events were pretty resistant to composition rules and the like in Warhammer Fantasy. It often meant we would see some pretty wild army builds to try and make sense of what happened. I'm optimistic we will see a bunch of different event cultures develop (which I think we are all better for). I do have a little worry for the Dwarves "Ride of the Valkyries"... ruclips.net/video/hn37QfXw1-E/видео.html
Love the content and engagement!
I look forward to the mid-west shredding Square Based Comp when we announce it tomorrow lol.
My teammate Logan Heath still haunts the SoCal open to this day.
You can't forget a legend
On the 1999 vs 2000 points. The differences between armies is more acutely felt at the boundaries in brackets when you have access to high power rare and lord characters. Take 8th Ed Warriors of Chaos as an example; you would have a massive power advantage @ 2001 points vs 1999 points in the new OW comp system
1:18:30 When you talked about having a bad experience at a club/pickup game it triggered me, remembering when I tried to get into 8th edition for the first time. I had started building Skaven and got around 2,000 points and arranged a game at my local club. I explained it was my first game and that I wanted a chill learning experience. Well, this guy said he would play me and he was experienced. I rocked up to the club with my new army - super excited for my first game. He turned up with his Beasts of Chaos tourney list - and preceded to tell me he needed a bit of tourney practice for an upcoming event. Well - after he crushed me completely by turn 2, I sure did have a learning experience that day but it wasn’t the lesson I wanted but a lesson in how some people are douchebags. Even to this day I am wary of playing strangers in pickup games - it was an awful experience. Hopeful I will have better times when I get my new Tomb Kings army up and running. Fingers crossed.
See... That's a bummer. And just so you know - he probably also sucked at Warhammer. Beating up on a new player isn't practice, it's being a dipshit.
I'd bet if you'd gone to whatever event he was practicing for you could have gotten some catharsis by watching him lose badly ... And also actually learned something from his opponents.
Shocking form the experience player .... Obviously a complete arse - he could have practiced and taught you how to play in an enjoyable way by running through the rules and how he hoped his army was going to work and also give you some pointers on how to play your army. I used to buy all the army books read them so I could understand how other armies would play to the best I could but if I played someone less experience than myself I would be able to help with their strategy as much as I could hone mine - I am glad it did not put you off the game completely good luck with your Tomb Kings in the new version the Old World .
The USMR battle magic drama chat took me back to my original intro game at gnesworkshop,
“Let’s SEE which spell you’ve cast…
…
ITS CONFLAGORATION OF DOOOOOM!!” (With the ‘R’ rolled hard and the doom how you think it is)
@vahalaFinger, I recently started using wooden color crayon to do highlight. make perfect hard edge !
Keep it comin’ fellas! (Beastmett)
I really want you guys to know that I truly feel you have the community on your back and that honestly no matter what tomfoolery gw management gets up to we'll make it through while you're at the head
I don’t know if it fits the timeline but I’ve always been interested in kroqgar’s invasion of Albion and the construction of a lizardmen city there
from a balance perspective 1999 pts does swing the scales towards hordes which i do think should be a consideration if the focus is balance.
from a 'nartative' player who's checking out the old world hype because I'm geed to proxy my under used historicals against my buddies WFB stuff, the general point that we should just run our own events and take up space rather than griping is well taken more of us might hear it if you didn't feel the need to get agro about it cobber.
Can anyone provide a link to the Old World event in Sweden mentioned at the start of the video?
please keep this content coming!
I liked and subscribed. Might also now get back into miniature wargames...maybe. Thanks for this chaps...this is really fantastic.
The Dwellers are also back, so you are absolutely the adults.
Love the show. You guys are putting out great content and it’s great to see two intelligent wargamers thinking through a number of important topics about the emerging game. It’s interesting that you guys think allies and mercenaries should be nixed for tournaments. We might get there as a community but I’d like to see how the game plays without composition restrictions first. They are only 25% and you have to take a character. I think it might be fun to take a unit of demography in a wood elf army or a beastman Minotaur block in a khorne army. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it before we start seeing some games on the table. It would be fun if some tournaments allowed them (perhaps banning certain units as allies if necessary?) back in 7th and 8th edition we literally used to score composition and dock tournament points from players based on combos. I don’t think the old world will have those kind of balance issues. But we will see! Anyhow, please keep the shows coming. I need to company while I grind through building my oldhammer wood elves army!
Demigryph knights*
I guess we've both seen enough "Taudar" for one lifetime. Allies defeat the point of having factions that have their own strengths and weaknesses. It could be fun, absolutely no doubt ... But specifically from the perspectives of events allies have basically never resulted in a more diverse meta. Kinda the opposite.
That being said doubles and pickup games and fun narrative scenarios go nuts! And heck if your local community is all for it then we're not gonna say you can't. But as a general point - we're not down. - Val.
@@SquareBasedOldWorldThat's all fair. I don't have experience with 40k tournaments and their historical allies meta so my experience comes more from 8th ed doubles tournaments where armies often seemed less powerful when combined--because the special rules didn't flow across the full army and the pairs had to split magic dice. I'm eager to get the books in hand next weekend and start plastering army lists on my wall with red string like that dude from A Beautiful Mind. I'll have a better sense of the potential for allies in the Old World then. But point taken on allies breaking the theme/strengths/weaknesses of the army archetypes. Hopefully we will get a diversity of event packs over the coming year that will test this out/decide it. Or, even better, maybe we will get occasional events that allow allies to add some spice to the tournament calendar.
As far as base sizes... if both people are on trays, which everyone is typically... just measure to and from tray edges. Treating the edge of the tray as 1 big base, unless you have taken casualties then its just to the edge of where the unit is as on that tray...
The dimensions of a rimmed tray of 5 30mm square-based models is *very* close to the dimensions of certain trays for 5 32mm round-based models, if the round-based tray is designed so the bases are right up at the edge.
Mark the movement tray and use that for easy accuracy.
Chess has 8 pawns, but only 2 bishops and only 1 queen. Meaning if the unit is going to be spammable it shouldn’t be queen-level strength. If buggies had been pawns and not alpha striking entire teams off the board it would have been fine.
After all this talk of Chaos Lords, Wood Elf arrow lines, ambushing units…looks like my poor Bretonnian Men-at-Arms are going to get smashed 😂
Can’t wait for your Bretonnia review. Keep it up gents!
Just worked out I can fit 3 dragons in a high elf 1999 list. Oh so tempting haha
I’d be fine with allies if they made it so you couldn’t take allied rare units (it doesn’t make sense for the Empire to be lending out steam tanks), and an allied core unit took up a special slot, and an allied special unit took up a rare slot, similar to dogs of war taking up rare unit slots in 6th.
Rob hitting people with the classic Guy Debord line : "You are responsible for your own boredom"
Will Adapter Movement trays potentially mess with the number of models under a template?
Great chat.
I really like some of Rob’s commentary on narrative gamers, but I’d assume it will be (potentially deliberately) misunderstood. As someone who was involved in running ‘narrative’ Heresy events, the narrative was very much in the setting, which we pushed big time in the event, even as far as not having placings for the winning games. But essentially the game was still played to a points level, the level of narrative would vary wildly depending on the match up (list and player), and there’s no reason that a more competitive event could not produce the same level of fun game with a narratives formed by players on each table. But only if they wanted to, and sometimes the narrative is just in one players head, and there’s no reason that cannot work as well.
The problem is probably down to the way the word narrative is used, and the different expectations that sets. I’ve no doubt I’ve used the word to describe myself as a player, but the truth is while I enjoy big narrative games with friends, most of the time that narrative is my own, and what I really am is a more casual gamer who enjoys ‘narrative’ where I can get it.
As a filthy casual I love to listen to meta chat, and think tournaments do a lot to help drive community initiatives, create potential comp where it’s needed, which then flows down to club pick up games.
I would say try all the stuff at clubs though, most pick up games aren’t speed dating, they’re arranged via Facebook and WhatsApp groups, and all the game set up questions can be asked there.
I love the 1999 Vs 2000 chat as well. But I really wouldn’t rush to decide on that before 2k has been tested a bit. I get what you were both saying about how experience tells us things will need to be managed, and there’s a good chance 1999 might be the fix for that, but I’d at least try the game as the studio has balanced it for a short while, some armies really might need that extra war machine or lord. With that in mind though I would say that sticking to 2k (or 1999) could be important, I’m already seeing chatter about 2400 and 2500 again, and that’s where the bigger units sneak back in, the space to double or triple up on powerful stuff. I like that I can’t take it all at 2k, so hope that’s the level we stick to.
Can’t wait to see where we are in a year.
Idk about all terrain, but forests for sure the trees should lift away. The old GW woodland was perfect for this with a little magnet hobby.
I think everyone is going to want a level 4 just for dispelling all those level 1's. Also I think the best fix for wizard spam is to restrict each spell to only being cast once per turn no matter how many people know it.
1:25:30 I lose tournament games all the time. Without me? There can be no winners! 😛
As far as the discussion at 1:20:00 I first of all agree that the biggest issue with finding games is finding opponents who are on the same page as you as far as what you want from the game. Players agreeing on what type of game they want to play probably solves 95% of issues like that.
On the same note, I'm always amazed at how so many self-proclaimed "narrative" players get so worked up over losing. Played a 2v1 game last week of 40k. Me and the "narrative" player against another player. The "narrative" player spent more time than the other two of us combined complaining about perceived balance issues. Curious how that works.
Comment of the stream. "I lost so hard I thought I had a brain tumour or something" absolutely creased 😂 we've all been there. I took my 10 chaos knights and chaos lord into aos thinking they'd chew threw anything. Yeah charged some trolls, horses got dead
Best use of allies if you have a pickup game with 2 guys at 1000 vs a guy with 2000 kind of thing
Only 25% allies though
Finding this podcast as a stats-centre and covid-times honest-stream enjoyer from before 40k lost me is like finding out that my two favourite bands are not just back together, but touring on the same bill 😂. #bassedforlyfe
this gives me allll the feels. - Val
And well deserved feels they are too sir! You are both absolute (worlds of) Legends! My hype for the game is now eclipsing the sun and I have no idea where I'm even going to play it haha. Much love to you both, and to the mighty Falcon wherever him and his little Lazer-eye are ❤
For the cannons example, is the rule that: A) you get 0-3 cannons from 0-999, and 0-6 from 1000-1999, then a shocking 0-9 at 2000 points, or is it B) that you get 0 cannons at 0-999, then 0-3 from 1000-1999, and 0-6 at 2000?
It's 0-3 per 1000. So you'd get up to 3 at 1000 and up to 6 at 2000. hence 1999 would mean you only get 0-3.
also it's not just cannons, but grudgethrowers and bolt throwers are part of the 0-3 limit list. So you could take one of each per 1000 or 3 of 1, etc...
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Good - that's what I thought it was, but I had a sudden doubt while listening. Anyway, great show as always, keep up the excellent work :)
A as far as I can see though I thought it was 0-2 ? 3 is better lol
People around me are also floating 2250-2500 probably just inertia off of 8th ed to be able to fit more in.
Do you guys think there's any chance we should go for a lower point total as the standard, say 1500 or 1750? Just curious. Obviously the model count in 8th was a huge objection and I'm wondering if that is being lost a bit at the moment. I have the same attitude as you guys about wanting to have a large inviting environment where you can pull in as many people as possible.
It feels like going to 2K already accomplishes that, considering most 8th ed events seemed to play around 2500 points, that's a 20% reduction.
@SquareBasedOldWorld for sure that was part of the problem. Do model points values seem comparable to 8th or is there any inflation in that arena?
Re; the crazy skew lists, if what Rob said about 9th age tournament players being part of the playtesting is true, I think we should be in good hands. Been 9th aging for a few years and the playtesters always go super skewy, trying absolute chaotic lists to see how much it breaks the game. im optimistic!
Me too
Daily podcast?? Love it
The developers of the game have already put in # per x pts restriction in the first place. This makes for a very clear indication of the potency of the unit. However, this also means they have tuned this to these pts values for a specific reason. Often these units have a very important role and may need a 2nd instance to handle a high pts value. I think trying to game this with the 1999vs2000 game tier would server detrimental for the intended restrictions already in place.
6:25 2.5D terrain sounds like an appropriate name to me.
Love Val attitude to Tournament play in regards to early tournament especially due to base sizes. Trying to rebase my Army now but it will take time as it is a vampire counts army, therefore need to be careful as i take them off older bases. Tournaments are great to play in as you are able to discuss the game and play against people who are liked minded. It is awY to make friends and also to have a real laugh. Give players 6-12 months then standards can be improved to the level that all players will want to adhere to. I really hope a tournament is held down at the end of England (south west) - Kernow, coz I will definitely be there.💀💀✨🌟💥
The only unit I've ever bought more then 3 was Land Speeders, and Terminators.
I showed up to a 40k tourney this past weekend with one of the worst armies in the game. I was hoping to go 1-4, was 0-3 going into day 2 but still happy to be getting games in. Ended 2-3 with final game being *almost* a tie and def my favorite game of the weekend. What's your stance on mercs specificially for Armies of Infamy?
Personally I'm not so against them as they're much much more limted than allies at present. Plus they're mitigated by some silly random rules that can make them less dependable ... of course it remains to be seen what they do with that allotment in the future. - Val